quote: We have selected a LiteOn burner with DVD-RAM support this time, and it should work well for just about everyone.
Hmmm...I can't find that the LiteOn SHW160P6S05 supports DVD-RAM. It is not listed on newegg nor Liteon nor zipzoomfly web sites as having DVD-RAM capability...
1. The Antec Overture II doesn't look as nice as the case selected, but it comes with a decent Antec power supply, and it is a very nice case (fits just fine in my stereo cabinet.)
2. I don't understand why Media Center XP is being recommended when MythTV is free and can do so much more. (AT has even done several write-ups about it.) Seems stupid to waste money on an unnecessary OS when there is a free alternative that does things better.
The idea is that you can do more with MCE 2005 - like run all of your Windows apps. HTPC doesn't mean that you don't do any normal PC stuff, at least to me. Naturally, you can also go the Linux + MythTV route. If you want to build *just* an HTPC that will do nothing else, I would recommend MythTV, get a case that you like (preferably something that will be quiet), get the Hauppauge PVR-500 (non-MCE), and then basically get a cheap motherboard, processor, and 512MB of RAM. Add in a DVDR, and then stuff in as many large hard drives as you feel the need to use. A couple 320GB drives would be a great place to start....
Low bottom lines are nice but if you have to resort to low quality components that are likely to fail (Rosewill) what’s the point?
Ok, so a case is essentially just a "box" to put all your hardware in but the power supply is a very important piece of hardware. Rosewill is about 2-3 out of 10; I wouldn't count on them hitting their rated power and I certainly wouldn't count on them being very reliable.
For under $50 (not including shipping) there is wide selection of http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?Subm...">InWin case/PSU combinations. The cases are very solid; heavy steel, and quality plastic, no cheap junk here. The PSUs are also of decent if not great quality, and about 100x better then Rosewill units at any rate.
As always, power supply aficionados love to rip on anything that doesn't cost upwards of $50 for the case+PSU, and even then those PSUs are "junk". You have to step back and look at the intended system. Would we recommend the cheap Rosewill PSUs for a midrange config? No, though they'll almost certainly still work if you get the higher 400W+ PSUs. I bought a couple crap cases and PSUs last year just to see how they do with budget systems. They are both still running fine, nearly 12 months later, even with overclocking.
I've recommended Inwin in the past, and they're still good. I don't like using the same case month after month, and plenty of people have no issues with Rosewill units. Read the Newegg reviews -- which granted can be skewed -- and you still will see very few writeups scoring any Rosewill case lower than 4/5. Why? Because the people using them are probably building budget systems.
I will state this once again: a budget system with one hard drive, IGP or lower end GPU, typically 1GB or less RAM, one DVDR, and a lower spec CPU will come nowhere near the stated power output of even cheap PSUs. A Pentium D 805 with 7600GT http://www.anandtech.com/guides/showdoc.aspx?i=279...">maxed out at 256W; dropping to IGP would reduce power requirements at maximum by a good 30-50W I would say. Take away the Pentium D and put in a single core Athlon 64 or Sempron, and the maximum power doesn't even break 170W. Average load is going to be around 125W (or less). For the upgraded configurations, they will be faster than the Pentium D 805 but still use less power, so they will also work. I think if you're going to spend $1000 on a system, spending at least $50 on the power supply starts to make sense, but when you're already cutting out higher performance graphics, CPUs, memory, etc. do you really need to get a more expensive, "better" PSU?
Now, I'm not saying cheaps PSUs are great. They usually have poor heatsinks and compensate by using higher RPM, louder fans. They will often fail if you push their power output by overclocking, using multiple HDDs, a higher-end GPU, etc. If you just plan on running a low-end configuration, though, it's really doubtful that you will have problems -- heck, I've even had high-quality power supplies fail or arrive DOA.
Anyway, just FYI, Rosewill is basically a Newegg brand as far as I'm aware. Concerning power supplies, according to information I've received, there are only about three manufacturers in Asia that actually put together power supplies. They will build to the specifications that a company sends, but they are pretty much all coming from the same places. The names on the outside of the power supply are often pretty meaningless.
My statements come from experience; I'm not some power snob that thinks every system should have a $200 500 watt PCP&C unit. I haven't been building and working with PCs for a particularly long time but over the course of 5 years I've replaced probably 5-6 (at least) Deer, L&C PSUs (as well as one or two others). Deer, L&C, and other similar manufactures are known for making junk, most of them fail after 1-2 years. Also keep in mind all of them were lower-end budget systems, Duron CPUs, 256MB of RAM, one hard drive, one optical, ect; I don't have to tell you the power requirements were very low.
On the other hand I've only had to replace one PSU from a known good manufacture; a mATX Delta that was clogged full of dust. I've also personally put into service 20+ systems powered by cheap ($30-40) FSP (Forton-Source) units; all of them are still going, some of them approaching 4.5-5 years.
Running a couple of "crap" units for 12 months is hardly conclusive. As I've already stated I've replaced a lot of junk, yet I know for fact some of that junk is still running after 2-3 years. Of course if you do the math it comes out to be a failure rate of about 30-40% (within 24 months) for Deer & L&C units; maybe you find that to be expectable but I don't.
A low load dose not mean a cheap, low-quality, crap, junk whatever you want to call it PSU going to be OK. It will almost certainly last longer, but how long is anyone's guess. There is also the safety factor; a well designed (slightly more expensive) unit will protect the hardware it's protected the hardware it's connected to in the event of a failure. (very) Cheap units often designed just to work and lack such features.
Cheap PSUs are designed to work, not to last and that’s what most of them do. They do use smaller heatsinks and use louder fans but they are often designed with cheap and sometimes inadequate components. This means shorter life span, low efficiency/more heat, higher ripple, and poor voltage regulation
Newegg reviews don't hold much of any value when it comes to PSU. The majority of those reviews are dealing short durations and even worst units will last at least several months unless you stress them really hard. I'm willing to bet very few come back after 1, 2 or 3 years later to complain about failure. There is also no tangible user benefit from a poor unit working poorly and a good unit working properly. There is no application to measure DC ripple, and no real accurate way of measuring voltages, but the affects of high ripple and poor voltage regulation are very real in the form of instability and decreased component life. If it turns on it gets 5, if it’s a DOA it gets 0, that’s hardly a complete picture.
Back to Rosewill. I know they are Newegg's house brand, and they don't actually manufacture anything. Rosewill's PSUs come from a variety of manufactures non I would consider to be good; according to jonnyGURU the list includes ATNG, Youngyear and Solytech; you can check the “Rosewill brand experience?” thread in the forums http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid...">here if you want to educate yourself further on the subject.
I cant speak for Rosewill (although, I would neither reccommend, nor put one in any of my own systems), but I just replaced another no name PSU for a customer today. The thing is, he just bought this other PSU TWO DAYS ago, from another 'PC repair' shop. The PSU had Kate loon fans in it, was a no name brand (couldnt find a single identification, number, or company name on it, that google knew of . . .), and was SUPPOSEDLY a 550W PSU. I Say SUPPOSEDLY, because the PSU which I replaced it with, was a 380W wariant (another in-expencive PSU brand 'TRU-Power'), and it only had 3 amps less on the 12V output. In other words, this '550W' PSU had all its power rated on the 3.3v output(atleast the majority of it).
There are a few exceptions when it comes to buying in-expencive parts from any one, for anything, but when you're 'playing' with your buisnesses name sake, its not a very good idea reccomending parts that you are un-sure of. I will guess, that some of, or possibly even a lot of these people putting down 'lesser brand ' PSUs, are kids, who have read bad information on a web site, or forum somewhere, and basicly havent a clue, however, this doesnt mean this is entirely false. Hell, I've read the user reviews on newegg, concerning Antec PSUs, and its not always good, but, again, readers judgement/experience will let you know who is full of it, and who is a complete idiot, when putting PCs together.
Anyhow, where our buisness is concerned here, we will not play around with the random off-branded PSU, and only use those in-expencive parts that WE KNOW will work, but I still reccommend atleast an Antec to each customer, explain to them why, and let them make the final choice.
For my own PCs, nothing less than an Antec, ever. Why do you ask ? 13 years of building PCs, the majority of which I have used in-expencive PSUs in my own systems, and getting tired of the random oddity, like the PC randomly shutting down on its own, BSoDs, or a system that plain ole, wont boot, period :)
I have had bad luck with Antec the past three years. Every single Antec power supply I have used has failed within two years. Most were cheap 350W power supplies that came with the case, but I even had a couple truepower 380W power supplies fail (Antec Sonata case).
Consider this: Rosewill IS Newegg. What is Newegg known for? Providing some of the best prices on computer hardware on the Internet. They are also known for having very good customer support. Others have already mentioned that there really aren't that many Asian companies who actually manufacture power supplies. Why does brand X cost more than brand Y? In some cases it is because they use higher-quality components. In other cases, it's because company X is just trying to make more of a profit. I would be willing to bet that most of the people who bash on Rosewill have never actually owned or tested one of their power supplies. In fact, the next time I need a higher-quality power supply (for example if I'm building an SLI or CrossFire system) I think I'm going to go out and buy one of the more expensive Rosewill offerings and see how it does. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82...">This one looks interesting!
"Check the 'Rosewill brand experience' thread in the forums here if you want to educate yourself further on the subject."
That thread was about as useless - actually more so - than Newegg reviews. A bunch of people called them crap, but not one of those people said "I bought unit X, ran hardware Y, and it Z..." Again, I'm not saying they're great, but what's better:
A $39 Rosewill case and 300W PSU *shipped* that's flimsy but will still run okay and looks fine, and the PSU might fail in a year or two (at which point you can go out and buy a Fotron Source for another $40 *shipped*), or go and get an InWin with 300W PSU that starts at around $65 shipped, has a slightly better PSU that will likely still fail within 3 years if you never clean the dust out of your case, at which point you again buy a new $40 PSU?
Yes, the InWin is built better, but for people that put the system together and then never open it again unless something fails, does it really matter how easy or hard the case is to work with? We're not talking about cases that are likely to go to LAN parties here, and most likely they will sit on the floor or desk for years. If I'm building a cheap computer for someone, they are almost always FAR more concerned with what the case looks like then whether it's flimsy or not. I had three Antec SLK-1650 cases with failed PSUs in the past two years... I built five systems using that case during that time period. The Raidmax case I built 3 years ago for another friend is still going strong, as is another Raidmax from 5 years back.
Oh yeah, the 10+ PSUs I've had fail over the last three or four years have not once managed to take out any other component. None of those were Rosewill, but there's just too many anecdotal "the PSU destroyed my system" stories floating around when I have experienced that sort of problem exactly once during my 20+ years of using computers. (That was back in the days of the Celeron 300A; I've be used an old AT power supply with an extremely cheap motherboard that was supposed to be Baby AT compatible.)
The thread contains information regarding the manufactures of Rosewill PSUs. If you really want know what your dealing with that’s probably the most important information there is.
We agree that the InWin is better, but your “slightly better” assumption is based on what?, the slightly higher price? InWin has always had a reputation for making well built cases with decent included PSUs. They used to outsource FSP for all of their PSUs; very good units making them probably the best value out there for case/PSU combos. Recently InWin started manufacturing their own units, they have been by tested by http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/inw...">X-bit and found to comparable to the FSP units. I’ve opened a few up and checked them out and found the design and components to be decent (in my non-expert opinion) so it looks like the value is still there.
Rosewill's PSUs on the other hand come from manufactures known for producing some of the lowest quality cheapest units around. Rosewill might not have bad reputation yet but the units that are built by the same manufactures do.
Isn’t $15-20 more worth the piece of mind of reliable PSU and better built case?
To some, yes. To someone else, $15-$20 is the difference between IGP and X1300/7300, or Athlon 3000+ and X2 3600+, or 320GB and 160GB HDD, or a better motherboard, or....
You get the point. I still strongly believe that most people who grip on power supplies as being low-quality are trying to use them with higher end systems. As soon as someone starts to upgrade from the basic budget builds, yes I would definitely recommend going with a better power supply. However, when you are trying to save as much money as possible, $20 is a pretty significant upgrade on every single component.
Personally, I don't like building budget computers, because $10-$25 above "budget" in every category will get you a MUCH better computer. Yes, it ends up costing $200 more, but if anyone asks me for advice on a budget computer that's what I'm going to recommend (within reason). The "upgraded build" more or less represents what I would truly recommend, with the caveat that I would not recommend every single upgrade for every person. I really feel $750 is the best price point for a "budget" system. Unfortunately, when I get a few budget buyers guides targeting that I got complaints from people that wanted to stay closer to $500. You can't please everyone, so I figure a spread from $500-$1000 is pretty reasonable. I like to think that most people are capable of extrapolating the recommendations a bit and realizing that there are literally hundreds of computer parts worth considering. Which ones are best is going to be a matter of pricing, availability, support, and performance. Without trying to write 20,000 word buyers guides, I'm quite sure that I can cover every single aspect of what you should or shouldn't put into a system.
I still think a lot of people are way too concerned about power supply quality when looking at budget (~$500) computers. There's a reason those types of power supplies get put in cheap OEM systems: they're good enough for budget computers running budget tasks. Ripple current? When was the last time ripple current affected a $500 computer? How can you even tell? It's more like voodoo mumbo-jumbo than concrete evidence of what will happen. LOL!
You're not a power supply snob? You damn well could have fooled me! I think Jarred is beating around the bush and trying to be nice so I'm going to cut right through the crap and tell you how it is.
There are a bunch of elitist enthusiasts out there that think every computer on the planet needs high-end components. Oh sure, you can skimp a bit on the memory, motherboard, CPU, and graphics card, but OMG you had damn well better not use a generic brand power supply! These "experts" have all sorts of experience replacing bad hardware. Amazingly, they never get calls from people wanting to replace good hardware.
Of course, the people that buy really good hardware almost never have to call someone to replace any parts that fail in the first place! I can tell you how many times I've gone to the local computer store with my broken PC and asked for help: NONE! Not a single fucking time! You know why? Because I am capable of diagnosing and replacing my hardware without anyone's help. Just like a lot of you.
The people who call up a friend or an expert to come and fix their computer are not capable of doing it themselves. These people are the same people that usually by OEM systems, or if they do get a "custom" system they almost never buy anything that's truly considered high-quality. I've had Enermax PSUs fail on me, quite a few Antec PSUs, and over the years many "generic" PSUs.
Because I've had more generic PSUs that have failed, I could quickly reach the conclusion that they are lower quality. The only problem is that I have built far more systems with generic PSUs. If I look at all of the power supplies I've used, very few of them last more than five years... or at least, after five years I'm ready get rid of the case, power supply, and everything else. In terms of failure rates, I would say about 20% have problems with the power supply in the first three years of life, but less than 5% have problems within the first year. And those figures really seem to have little to do with who makes the power supply. Okay, maybe if I went out and bought only expensive power supplies, my first-year failure rate would be even lower. Given monetary savings that come with cheap power supplies and cases, though, I'm more than willing to deal with a 5% failure rate. Sort of like Dell and HP I bet.
So let me wrap this up with a concrete story. When Rosewill first came onto the scene as a brand... 18 months ago? Two years ago?... I was curious. I ended up building four systems using Rosewill cases. I probably left a little bit of blood/skin on every single one of those cases, but such is the price of using a budget case. It's the Rosewill TU-153 with 400W PSU, if you're wondering. I have a Pentium D 805 system running in one of those cases, using a Biostar TForce motherboard, and the CPU is even overclocked to 3.4 GHz. I have another one of those with an Athlon X2 3800+, overclocked to 2.5 GHz. Then I built two more computers (one Athlon 64 3000+ and one Sempron 2800+) for a couple people I know.
All four systems are over a year old now, and no one has called to complain about instabilities or crashes, and my two dual core systems haven't had any problems either. My one complaint is that none of the systems are really quiet. The cases are also pretty flimsy, at least compared to some of the nicer cases out there. The one thing I need to make clear is that not one of these computers has anything faster than a GeForce 6600 GT graphics card, because none of them are being used for gaming. Case closed.
I do appreciate Linux being mentioned in the article, but there are a few missed considerations / mistakes in the article.
1. 'W'INE 'I's 'N'ot an 'E'mulator. It is a compatability layer.
2. Keyboards can be funny in Linux, and the more fancy buttons and scroll wheels you have, the more likely you are going to have to run extra software to make them work.
3. Using an existing home theatre may not be a great choice for your speakers, considering many onboard sound cards get squirrley with the coax / optical outs when run under ALSA.
FYI - Linux users interesteed in the M2NPV: This boards will not boot up recent 2.6 kernels without some hacks. Apparently, there is a bad ACPI table in the BIOS - at least that's what an Nvidia developer has posted. A google on M2NPV and linux will show plenty of references to this problem.
'Wine is an Open Source implementation of the Windows API on top of X and Unix.'
'Think of Wine as a compatibility layer for running Windows programs. Wine does not require Microsoft Windows, as it is a completely free alternative implementation of the Windows API consisting of 100% non-Microsoft code, however Wine can optionally use native Windows DLLs if they are available. Wine provides both a development toolkit for porting Windows source code to Unix as well as a program loader, allowing many unmodified Windows programs to run on x86-based Unixes, including Linux, FreeBSD, Mac OS X, and Solaris.
More information can be read in the articles Why Wine is so important, and Debunking Wine Myths. If you are wondering how well a particular application works in Wine, please examine the Applications Database. For installation instructions and step-by-step help with running Wine, take a look at the User Guide.
Wine is free software. The licensing terms are the GNU Lesser General Public License.'
"but we definitely wouldn't recommend purchasing and new socket 939 system unless you can get it for less money than the equivalent AM2 setup."
I'm very happy with my $99 socket 939 + Athlon 3400+ combo from NewEgg. The processor overclocked to 2.6 Ghz with cheapo RAM. The $60 saved could get a better class of video card. In my case, it was an upgrade, rather than a new system, and I kept my video card and RAM.
Upgrades are of course in a different category, but you also have to take into account the cost. If you *can* get a 939 configuration for less money than an AM2 config - and I'm not talking $5-$10 less, but more like $50+ less - then it's certainly worth a thought, especially for lower budget purchases. Heck, I'm very happy with my Athlon X2 4600+ setup which is also a 939 system. Determing when and where to upgrade is a very different subject from building an entirely new PC.
On page 2, the second to last paragraph, the second sentence, starts "Dual channel performance might be up to ..." Should that read "Single channel performance might be up to ..."?
I just want to mention that the Antec NSK2400 is a good, cheaper alternative to the Silverstone lc-17 and seaconic combo you introduced in your HTPC section. The budget boards you mentioned are all mATX (non upgraded) so they would fit in the NSK2400. It comes with a high quality, quiet 380W power supply and 2 120mm fans. It makes a good budget HTPC. The Silverston lc-17 is a great case but belongs in the Midrange buyers guide.
All you need for a budget HTPC is a good quiet case/psu (nsk2400), a single core AMD cpu (Sempron 2600+ if you are really cheap, otherwise a A64 3000+ or 3200+), and a 6150 motherboard. (plus ram, DVD and harddrive of course)
For the upgraded configuration you can add a X2 3800+ so you can transcode, and a 7600GS for a little game action and a few more check marks on the purevideo features list. If you don't like to game on your TV, a 7300GS has the same purevideo features as the 7600GS but costs a little less.
Lets keep the midrange guide seperate from the budget crowd.
Comment added - definitely a good choice, and I'm not sure why that never showed up in my searches at Newegg and other places. I know I was trying to keep the price closer to $100 for an HTPC case, but I kept getting nMEDIA as the only really inexpensive options.
I always enjoy these guides and get good ideas from them.
One change that's worked for me is to spring for a better case and powersupply even in a budget system, so that they will be usable for the next upgrade in 2-3 years. For example, I bought an Antec case for $60-70 a few years ago and did not want to change it when I recently upgraded. I don't think too many build-it-yourselfers would be happy with a generic case and cheap power supply year after year, even if they held up.
"Putting together a true budget Intel-based system is difficult right now. Sure, it's possible, but as much as we like Core 2 Duo it simply can't fit into a budget price range. As there are no cheaper single-core Core 2 processors available yet, we wind up back in a familiar place"
Wrong. Fry's has been selling boxed C2D 6300 and an ECS MB for $179 since the end of September. I know because I have one. Moved over my disks, AGP graphics, and DDR SDRAM and the system runs quite nicely. Basically, they throw in a MB for free. So if you already have a good AGP adapter (the board does have onboard video) with DDR SDRAM (the ECS MB also takes DDR2), your budget upgrade is $180. You can complete your move to a new MB, PCIe and DDR2 at your leisure.
I agree on the idea of re-using existing DDR memory and AGP video card. The Fry's combo ECS board & E6300 deal is pretty good. Or, an ASRock 775Dual-VSTA board & E6300 CPU might be a little better quality. Unfortunately, there aren't any "good overclocking" boards for the E6300 CPU, that also allow re-using DDR memory and AGP video cards.
As I've said in other posts, upgrading is a completely different subject from buying a complete system. If you want to get the Fry's combo, it's not bad, but then you're stuck without a PCIe X16 slot for the future. As I don't expect ATI or NVIDIA to bother with AGP cards anymore, it's a fine board for a base Core 2 Duo platform but it won't overclock much (if at all). You'd almost be better off buying the combo just to get the CPU for $15 less.
Also, we don't bother quoting prices from short-term bargains, as they come and go while the guides stick around for a few months. If you can find a much better deal than the prices we quote, go for it, but if it's a 1-day-only affair it won't make it into the buyer's guide. That's what the comments section is for, of course. :)
For those that are interested, here's the http://www.netaffilia.com/ad/electronics/frys/i/20...">Fry's ECS C2D combo information. When it expires, Fry's may or may not renew the offer or come out with something similar. Cheers!
Fry's has the deal for $169. I bought the combo and put it together a week ago /it was 179 then/ using my old parts - AGP card, memory, etc. Works perfect, stable at clock speed , no any problem. It has SATA , RAID, USB 2.0 , Ethernet. The mobo has pretty good layout too.
I unfortunately bought this board a few months ago and have regretted it. Overclocking support is almost non-existant because there is no option to change the HTT multiplier. You'll be lucky to overclock 5%. Memory voltage only goes to 1.9V, so most DDR2-800 memory will not work. In addition, with the current BIOS, the board is very picky about memory regardless of the speed.
The best MATX AM2 board right now seems to be the Abit NF-M2. Has all the features of the M2NPV-VM plus has all the BIOS tweaks of a full ATX board.
I second that. I have heard nothing but problems with this line of boards from asus. Poor overclocking and very poor memory support. I don't personally have this board but I have the 939 version and it sits in my closet. It never worked right with any of my memory from any of my 5 computuers, the usb never worked right, and overclocking was non existant due to the memory voltage limit. There are better options.
I did add a mention of the overclocking limitations of the board, which are mostly caused by the lack of voltage adjustments. Gary has it for review and hasn't had any problems with memory incompatibility. If you're after great overclocking, uATX and IGP solutions are rarely a good way to go. True, they could be made to overclock better than most do, but enthusiasts looking at overclocking generally don't want uATX systems -- or at least that's the general attitude of the motherboard manufacturers.
I've got the 939 ASUS board and it overclocks to the maximum BIOS limit of 240 HTT bus without too much trouble. I'm using it in my HTPC system and have been for a while. There are always going to be compromises made in budget systems. We chose to downplay overclocking support in order to get a DVI port and decent IGP. You could go with something like the DFI board and a 7300TC card for $30 more and get much better overclocking. You could spend $10 more on the Abit board and get better (but not great) overclocking. However, there are a ton of people out there that don't want to overclock. Just because a board has poor overclocking support doesn't mean a lot of people won't like the other features. That's my take anyway.
one more thing. If you guys have this board for review, PLEASE bring to ASUS's attention the lack of the HTT multipler in the BIOS and the voltage incompatibility with DDR2-800. Just being able to overclock at all would be great! Queries to ASUS support have gone nowhere.
Gary is working on a review. I initially screwed up on my overclock percentage and said 20%. Gary says he topped out currently at around 225 MHz HTT, which is 12.5%, and I changed the text to ~10%. I agree that the Abit board looks to be a better overclocker (performance at stock levels is going to be about the same), but at that point you're looking at a $100 "budget" motherboard and the $70 options begin to gain my interest. I think the Biostar TForce 6100 might overclock a bit better than the ASUS, so I would be more inclined to go down to that and lose the DVI port rather than spend any more on the motherboard.
great, look forward to seeing the review. That's the best overclock I've heard about for this board. Do you guys have access to an unreleased BIOS or something? Or maybe Gary has some tweaks or tips for getting there?
Here's a recent review where the reviewer gets to 213Mhz, which is more typical in my experience.
Gary tends to work magic with overclocking, so hopefully he can shed some light on the matter. I'm pretty sure he's using a public BIOS, though... maybe just better RAM and other components are playing a role?
Hi Jarred, granted the focus of this budget build is not overclocking, but it doesn't sound like you have hands on use with the AM2 M2NPV. You mention a potential 20% overclock, where it's actually closer to 5%. As far as I know, the 939 version does let you change the HTT mulitiplier which is why you can get to 240fsb. The AM2 BIOS is missing this adjustment. As we all know, the HTT bus not take to running over spec well, which is the biggest limitation of this board, not the voltage adjustments. Most people can not get this board past 210fsb.
If you don't believe the problems with this board, just check out the reviews at Newegg or the user forums at asus.com.
Also, while the Abit is not as good an overclocker as say my Lanparty NF4-Ultra, it sure looks like a pretty good performer to me. People successfully running > 300fsb, CPU voltage to 2.0v, ram voltage to 2.5v, and many of the obscure adjustments I see on my DFI. Well worth an extra $10. Heck, the silent heatpipe chipset cooler on the abit is worth the extra $ alone.
There really is no price difference between the upgraded budget system and the midrange system. I think it would be more useful to keep a clear price divide between the different categories. Otherwise you might as well just call them the same thing and save yourself half an article.
The idea is to purchase the upgrades you want/need. I don't think you need every more expensive option, so maybe just the CPU, mobo, and GPU. We do feel moving towards midrange will get you a better overall config, and part of the problem is that there really isn't much of a difference between an upgraded budget setup and a midrange computer. If we left off the upgrades altogether, though, I don't think people would like that.
...On Page 6, under the Budget Case and Accessories package, you have Linux and OpenOffice in the package.
Shouldn't you include MS Office under the Windows XP Budget Case and Accessories package?
Its not exactly a "fair comparison" to have one solution include an office suite, but the other without.
The rest of the article seems fine. Interestingly, I'm also considering the ASUS M2NPV-VM for a budget setup. :) (But with a cheap as Sempron for now).
I noticed in the Upgraded Budget AMD Athlon X2 AM2 System on page 4, you suggested a X2 3800+...I'm assuming that's the regular 89W ones, right? How much are the 65W versions? (Reason I'm asking because down here in Australia, the price difference is about AUD$5 to AUD$7).
A quick look at Newegg shows the 65W models are about $5-$15 more ($10 on the 3800+). Definitely worth a look, although the X2 EE 3800+ is out of stock at a lot of places right now. As for OpenOffice, it was more an implication that you can get decent free software if you want. You can get OOo for XP and many other platforms as well. I'd rate it as very close to the same quality as MS Works, but the full MS Word is definitely better than OOo's word processor.
I appreciate AT's new commitment to pumping out buyer's guides, which I continue to state are one of the most useful parts of the site for myself. Although my own PC won't be in the budget category, it's always great to have a system configuration to look at when a friend or family member asks for computer advice. I hope you guys keep up the present quick rate of releasing these.
Since I think Midrange is up next again, if Jarred reads this I hope he considers adding a discrete fan/heatsink option to the configurations for the next guide. With all the (welcome) info on OC'ing, it seems a shame to run the stock HSF.
The guides are a complete package, and we mentioned aftermarket HSFs in the High-End guide. :D But yes, I can put a great emphasis on that with the next midrange guide (which will move to the new "separated" format).
been awhile since i built my last system. Not sure why mpc7488 emphasizes 'you even get Windows' when that's included in both (his) comparisons. Couple points/questions:
1. I have read tomorrow (10/26) MS supposed to offer Express Coupon program to include upgrades to Vista, and that MCE with a 'SKU' will allow a free upgrade. So smart pricing and consideration might include MCE pricing, and whether an OEM MCE from Dell would include an eligible SKU or not. (yes budget systems but budget also means future-aware).
2. I have long been intrigued by dell's online option to provide an OS disc for $ 10.
Does anyone (eg the dell-experienced mpc7488 ) KNOW what's on this disc? eg, the retail OS
(I doubt), an OEM OS (only) or more like a Compaq-style 'recovery disc' where you may have to reinstall ALL the original bloated sw junk, cant install cmdcons (if no access to /i386), cant slipstream etc.
I emphasized Windows for the non-monitor box since at the $400 price point the O/S is about 1/4 of the price. Knocking off the cost of the O/S, you're getting a lot of hardware for the money. (Also, many people building budget systems might not be inclined to buy a copy of Windows *cough* pirate *cough*, but this route allows their conscience to be clear.)
All of the recent Dell PCs have the recovery option already loaded on the hard drive. The $10 you pony up extra is for the O/S disk, which is OEM I believe (not positive about that).
I'm not sure on the $10 XP CD either. I think it's supposed to be a full OEM copy of XP, but it might be a Dell branded version, meaning it could fail to work on non-Dell PCs if you want to move to a new computer in the future. The Dell recovery option is very conventient I think, with the only issue being the restoration of all the crap software. I think it took about an hour for me to remove all the stuff I didn't want on the XPS 410 system I got for review. (No XP CD was included on that one.)
I can tell you you do get a full version (OEM) on XP at least in my case. I bought a second hand dell from a business that had been bought out by another company (new company used Macs). The Dell came with a OS CD. I upgraded the PC's memory and added a DVD-RW, and eventually swapped motherboards - reinstalled just fine, no Dell splash screen or anything. Eventually I parked that PC and built my present Opteron machine - same CD works fine.
Business Dell PCs might come with different accessories than home Dell PCs. I know I worked at a company that used Dell Optiplex GX150 and later GX620 systems, and every one came with an OS CD. Sort of funny, as my understanding is the corporation had a site license anyway.
I'm pretty sure this is the case Jarred, a friend of mine let me check out his XP CD that came with his Dell system, on a non Dell system when XP first came out, and the error I got was 'this is not a Dell Computer . . '. However, this was a few years ago, so things could have changed, but somehow, I doubt it.
As the subject, good article, these system guides are always fun to read and debate.
You do touch on the OEM systems up front, but I didn't feel they got quite enough attention. At this price point, for budget systems that is, they are really a powerful option. I rounded up some pricing to compare:
The budget system as quoted in this article is:
Budget AMD: Athlon 64 3000+, 1 GB DDR2-667, 160 GB HDD, GeForce 6150, DVD-R/W, 19” Sceptre, keyboard, mouse, X-230 speakers, Win XP Home
With a $30 DVD-R/W upgrade these systems are essentially the same, with the Dell having a much faster dual-core processor, a very quiet case, and a warranty, with $100 cash in pocket. If you don’t need a monitor, the price drops to $430.92, after shipping and tax. With Windows! The user in this range often wants decent performance and usability but the PC isn't enough of a priority to spend a lot of cash, or they are poor college students forgoing Ramen noodles to upgrade their video cards, but I digress. Point being, the warranty coverage and tech support are usually the most valuable to budget purchasers, which also factors in subjectively.
I am not a n00b, you say! I want pure performance at Hyundai prices! Ok, let's look stricly at performance with OEMs, i.e., upgrading. A lot of the older Dells didn’t have expansion slots, which sucked, but a lot of the newer chassis do, and this one has one PCIe x16 slot which opens up upgrading as an option. As the article points out, graphics horsepower means more than CPU at the moment. So with a couple of additions to our Dell box:
DVD-R/W: $29
XFX GeForce 7900 GT: $199.99 (after $50 MIR from Newegg)
Toss in $10 for shipping, and that is a really nice gaming rig with a 3800+ X2, 1 GB of RAM, and a 7900GT for <$865 with a legal copy of Windows and a warranty. Yes, you will feel dirty every time you press the power button above the 'Dell' logo, but it'll fade quickly once you're gaming at high res with AA on your 1907FP.
All this said - I build my own systems, always. I like overclocking and mucking about in the BIOS, choosing my own heatsink/fan combo, and so forth too much to ever make an OEM system my primary box. But they can be really nice to suggest to friends, neighbors, acquaintences, and even enthusiasts without enough time or energy to build their own.
Thanks for stimulating my brain Jarred! A good PC hardware discussion always wakes me up in the morning.
Actually it can, and does. I personally know someone running that config. no problem, Google it and you'll find others. I was wondering if that would come up, good point to raise regardless of malice.
The Dell E521 would be perfect if it had DVI onboard. The integrated GeForce 6150 graphics processor is readily capable of that, only the physical connector is missing.
You are correct that the OEM systems are a pretty good deal. However, please remember to include speakers and a minor upgrade to the mouse. Depending on whether or not you want to argue about taxes and shipping, the net result is that the price ends up very close to what you would pay for the same configuration in DIY clothing. Here's what I got:
Base AMD Athlon™ 64 X2 Dual-Core 3800+
Operating System Genuine Windows® XP Media Center Edition 2005
Memory 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz- 2DIMMs
Keyboard Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse
Monitor 19 inch Ultrasharp™ 1907FP Digital Flat Panel
Video Card 256MB NVIDIA Geforce 7300LE TurboCache
Hard Drive 160GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™
Floppy Drive and Media Reader No Floppy Drive Included
Mouse Mouse included in Wireless, Laser or Bluetooth Package
Network Interface Integrated 10/100 Ethernet
Modem No Modem Option
Adobe Software Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 7.0
CD ROM/DVD ROM 16x DVD+/-RW Drive
Sound Cards Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Speakers Dell A525 30 Watt 2.1 Stereo Speakers with Subwoofer
Office Productivity Software (Pre-Installed) No productivity suite- Includes Microsoft Works 8. DOES NOT INCLUDE MS WORD
Security Software No Security Subscription
Warranty and Service 1Yr Ltd Warranty and At-Home Service
Internet Access Service 6 Months of EarthLink Internet Access Included
Miscellaneous Award Winning Service and Support
Future Operating Systems Windows Vista™ Capable
Dell Digital Entertainment No preinstalled software
TOTAL:$729.00
Tax: $61
Final Bill: $790.
Compare that to the budget config, only add in the CPU upgrade and use the XP accessory package. Also factor in the 7300 LE TC Dell includes. You end up saving about $75 all told, which is where I arrived at my conclusion: "You still get a lower price on the software [Works is also included if you care about that].... We feel that our buyer's guides offer better expandability, performance, and features at roughly the same price, with the only potential drawback being that you have to know how to put together the system yourself."
My point in including the OEM paragraph was to make sure people were aware of the option. I would say the overall component selection in the budget config is slightly better than what Dell gives, but if you just plan on using the computer without any performance tuning then the Dell (and probably HP and others) would come out on top. I will make this more clear, though, as I really do mean people should consider OEM systems at the bottom of the price range.
I would have to say that the Dell option is a good option, but in many peoples case, not the best option. I just recommended the Dell OEM system to a friend because I was running short on time. After 3-4 weeks of "build" time, the Dell finally arrived. I believe he placed his order in the month of Septemeber, so it was late September. He just received his computer this week, on the 23rd. I felt bad for the poor guy. He had ordered a 19" LCD from newegg the same day as the Dell system, but the LCD showed up on his doorstep on October 2nd.
The computer arrived and is what you would expect for a AMD X2 3800+ system. I just don't know if it was really worth waiting around for, ya know? So you have that going against the Dell system. Now, let's take into account the problems of dealing with Dell when a warranty or heaven-forbid, a technical problem happens.
I have called Dell about 10 times in the last 2 months for warranty, parts, issues, etc. and every call has been to an Indian person with poor English, which results in poor customer service. My shortest call to one person, took 30 minutes because of how many times you have to repeat yourself to them so that they can understand you. It's just awful. My longest call has been somewhere around 2-3 hours. This is not an exaggeration. I have phone records to prove it. Compare this to buying a DIY rig from a site like newegg or zipzoomfly where the delivery time is 3 days and warranty issues are handled by an actual American person residing here in the good ol' US of A. I just can't say that the Dell is worth the small amount of cost savings for the nightmares that await some people that have to deal with Dell after the sale.
As a PC builder, I would rather help people build their own computer than have them deal with Dell. I would hope the rest of the technical community would do the same.
I merely used Dell as one example, being that they are currently the largest OEM. Feel free to insert HP, Gateway, or some other OEM and you will still usually get similar prices (if not worse).
Not entirely true. There is an article on a shall we say "competing website", that stated that HP had actually surpassed Dell during this quarter or this year for total desktops/laptops etc. They considered it a tie, but HP had a small lead, so there :-p
Actually, my main point was that, the Dell OEM system like any other OEM system is good, but is probably not worth the savings when you take into account having to deal with the manufacturer when problems happen. It may not justify saving $50-$100 for an OEM system like that since you have to deal with shall we say "Indians", that have a horrible time trying to understand what you are saying.
Waiting 3-4 weeks for your computer to show up is not worth the cost savings. Having horrible customer support is not worth the cost savings. Just buy a custom built rig everytime and deal with a homegrown US of A company like newegg or zipzoomfly. They will handle your RMA promptly and efficiently in my past experiences compared to Dell.
Let's try to do away with Dell. Just remember, everytime you call Dell, its like Hell.
That has to be one of the most ignorant posts I've read in a long time. Racism and nationalism combined. What more could we ask for!? "Don't buy Dell because you'll get support from Indians!" Okay, let's think about a few things. Most of the people who call Dell technical support our computer novices, and often they are calling with stupid questions. They certainly aren't capable of building their own system and installing windows XP and all of the other software! What exactly is going to be the response of Newegg or Zipzoomfly if you should call up and informed them that you're having problems with drivers, Windows, etc.?
Generally speaking, the support from most online retailers is going to be if you need a hardware replacement. How often do you need to replace hardware in an OEM system because it fails on arrival or soon after? I have supported hundreds of Dell systems at an IT job, and while we definitely had component failures over the years, it was typically less than 10% of the systems that had problems during a three-year period.
If you purchase separate components and you get a failed piece of hardware, unless you spend extra in order to get an additional warranty, you're basically stuck RMAing the device. I have done that several times with new egg, and it is always at least a week delay if not two. Four weeks to get a complete system built and assembled, right around the time that Intel launched Core 2 Duo and everyone finally had a reason to buy Dell systems again? That's not that big of a problem in my book, especially considering all of the problems that were going on with P965.
Now let's shift over to Dell (or HP). On the offhand you get a bad component with your computer and you know how to troubleshoot it enough to tell that your hard drive, motherboard, whatever is the problem, what sort of support you get? Maybe you have to deal with the call center from India, but once you tell them "I turn my computer on and it won't work. It tells me boot device not found" you will usually be directed towards your local support location. Take the computer in, and perhaps in as little as one hour you will have your system fixed and running, certainly no more than a day or two. That sort of support comes standard for one year, and you can upgrade to two years for a moderate fee.
Dell is no angel, but neither are they that bad. They are, like most companies, looking to make money. You still get what you pay for, which means if you go with the cheap systems you get cheaper quality and lower performance. My biggest complaint with Dell is their motherboards, as that's the one area where low quality often leads to instability over time. That opinion once again stems from my support of hundreds of Dell computers.
No, Dell really is that bad. Do you know how many times you have to repeat yourself to them. They have horrible customer service. That alone is reason enough to not buy from them. I have way too many tell me how bad their experiences with Dell are all the time.
The response of newegg or zipzoomfly for a bad motherboard that you have to RMA is this, "Ok sir, go ahead and purchase a new one. Send us your bad motherboard and we will reimburse you once we have received the board." 3 days later you have a new board. If the same situation happened at Dell, you would be on the phone for over an hour telling them your case number, service tag, location, etc. so they can document it. Then you would wait 2-4 weeks for your part to arrive. Thanks, but no thanks.
Can you really deny the fact that Dell's customer service center is in India and they have the worst accents on the planet?
It took 4 weeks to build an AMD X2 3800 system if you had actually read the post correctly. You really think 4 weeks is an average time it should take to build a system that has been out for a year now? C'mon, gimme a break.
Thanks for the reply. I'd like to caveat my response by saying I'm *not* trying to argue or be a jerk - I just enjoy a good hardware discussion :) I also use your guides for comparison to what I'd do for myself (midrange usually) or for my friends, coworkers, etc. (budget). I totally agree, in this price range, you're still always getting better expandability with these. However, features and performance is much greyer to my mind, and with the right deals I think an OEM with a little tinkering can be a powerful option for the non-power user, even at prices outside of the bottom range.
Speakers: point made, I meant to include them and forgot. The X-230s are $31.25 at Newegg (free shipping).
OEM configurations: I've found the trick with Dell is generally not to upgrade their base configurations to get the best deals. For instance, buying the DVD-R/W and speakers from Newegg saves you $38. That can get put towards a real video card, instead of the 7300LE. Upgrades will quickly inflate the price and skew the deal.
"better expandability, performance, and features at roughly the same price"
Expandability: Without a doubt. This is where OEMs can't compare.
Features: $65 savings for a faster dual-core processor, better monitor, and warranty coverage. You lose DVI output (thanks yehuda) and have slightly slower memory. It's close enough though, as prices will fluctuate, I'll concede this one.
Performance: I'd have to say the crown would go to the 3800+! More impressively for media encoding and Windows tasks than for gaming, with the weak 6150.
Expandability: Without a doubt. This is where OEMs can't compare.
Features: $215 savings for a much faster video card, better monitor, and warranty coverage. You lose 1 GB of memory and HDD space.
Performance: The 7900GT would absolutely smoke the other box in just about any game, even with less RAM. Media encoding and Windows tasks would benefit from the greater RAM of the other config.
Obviously I am bored at work today. To each their own of course - I think OEM builds with alterations can be a powerful adversary, in price, performance and features, to self-builds in the budget price range, especially if overclocking is not a consideration, and shouldn't be relegated to the bottom of the heap. Just my $0.04.
It'd be interesting to see how a custom build would hold up against a Dell box with upgrades, in a cheapo-gaming-and-media-machine shootout.
Nice discussion; I always compare to dell/hp and always decide to build my own: I know what is in it, I build with future upgrades in mind, I do not use proprietory hardware. Also keep in mind that a bunch of people already have a keyboard, mouse, windows license, speakers etc and might even be able to re-use the case and or PS. With that in mind I usually come out ahead.
For the difference between the Dell and the homebuilt system (75$) you could easily buy a video card with not one but two DVI outputs. So, in features, Dell (with upgrades) would be a better deal
(but I would build my own anyway :D )
Upgraded Dell (purchasing everything from Dell): Athlon 64 X2 3800+, 1 GB DDR2-533, 250 GB HDD, GeForce 7300TC LE, DVD-R/W, 19” 1907FP, keyboard, mouse, 2.1 speakers, Win XP MCE2005, $759 (plus taxes). Add $240 for 7900GT = $999. You still get MS Works for "free" though.
Once you start going online and purchasing upgrades, however, I think you have moved away from your typical Dell PC buyer. Most people either want to buy the whole system with everything they want, or else they will go to a local store to buy a system or just put the whole thing together themselves. If you actually want Dell to put together a better gaming solution -- or anything with even moderately upgraded graphics -- you basically have to move up to their XPS line. That gives you a better CPU and maybe a few other extra perks, but the price suddenly jumps up to $1289.
As you say, you can usually do better getting the base OEM configuration and making upgrades on your own, but I'm not sure how many people really go that route.
I recently upgraded for under the cost of your listed upgrade, however I migrated HDDs, mouse, keyboard, monitor, and PSU. In my opinion, this would be a 'true' upgrade for a person such as myself. I could have even saved another $160 usd, if I didnt care about the onboard graphics where gaming is concerned, and unfortunately, for my wallet, I do ;)
At last tally, I spent between $750-$800 usd, including the low-end Lian Li case (very nice BTW), eVGA 7600GT, AM2 3800+, Corsair DDR2-6400 XMS (advertised at 5-5-5-18 timings, but my motherboard typicaly detects it as 4-4-4-12, as long as I'm running it stock), and an Asrock AM2NF4G-SATA2 motherboard. I'd like to add that this motherboard is JUNK, it overclocks fine, but the system gets BSoDs regularly, whether I OC it or not. Wont be long before I make a platform upgrade, to a Conroe CPU/ ABIT motherboard . . .
It's a fairly decent monitor and you can pick them up from Newegg right now for 179.99. My biggest complaint about it is the rather cheap stand it's on.
That memory is now the most expensive part of a normal computer.
Memory manufactors are making a fortune I bet on all types of memory. Not to mention off all these suckers who buy "gaming" memory. "Oh please mom i have to be the best geek on the net to have camo on my memory heatsink spreader!".
Memory manufacturers make the finished dimms, and almost all of them buy memory chips on the open market from Samsung, Micron, Elpida, and other huge semi-c0nductor manufacturers, This means companies like Corsair, OCZ, Kingston, Mushkin, etc. are as much at the mercy of chip prices as buyers are. I bring this up because the chip makers themselves are where chip prices haves been rising, and that is where the questions should be directed.
Forgot to mention, look at the latest part (sold by newegg) thats obviously jacked up in price, the 'Killer' network adapter, marketed as the 'the ultimate gaming NIC'. Somehow, I seriously doubt the card is worth $270 usd, I dont care if it shoots sparks out its behind . . .
Yeah well, Crucial is part of Micron, and they charge more for thier memeory than alot of 'manufactuers', IF you buy direct from them. Then again, if you buy direct from Crucial, IF your memory ever goes bad, they will send you a replacement before they even recieve the bad part (atleast this is what thier reps claim over the phone).
I myself paid $230 usd for my Corsair DDR2-6400 XMS memory about 3-4 months ago, 5-5-5-15 timings (supposedly, my system regularly detects it as 4-4-4-12 timings). At the time, I thought it was outrageous, and they also gave me a $50 rebate, which I've recieved by now. Turns out comparred to now, I actually recieved a good price ;)
This all seems to be a trend started by the graphics companies over a year ago, offer a product that you CLAIM is a gaming part, and jack up the price. Motherboard manufactuers, and memory manufactuers just now seem to be catching on, this wont go away, until the kids stop spending mommies, and daddies money on such parts. Hopefully, this trend will go away eventually, and once these companies realize they could actually make more money from people like us who build systems for more than just themselves. *shrug* I dislike buying non branded memory, and preffer a company with a reputation for reliability, but at the same time I refuse to buy parts that have obviously been jacked up, because the manufactuer has turned greedy.
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jonp - Thursday, November 16, 2006 - link
Hmmm...I can't find that the LiteOn SHW160P6S05 supports DVD-RAM. It is not listed on newegg nor Liteon nor zipzoomfly web sites as having DVD-RAM capability...
BurnItDwn - Friday, October 27, 2006 - link
1. The Antec Overture II doesn't look as nice as the case selected, but it comes with a decent Antec power supply, and it is a very nice case (fits just fine in my stereo cabinet.)2. I don't understand why Media Center XP is being recommended when MythTV is free and can do so much more. (AT has even done several write-ups about it.) Seems stupid to waste money on an unnecessary OS when there is a free alternative that does things better.
JarredWalton - Saturday, October 28, 2006 - link
The idea is that you can do more with MCE 2005 - like run all of your Windows apps. HTPC doesn't mean that you don't do any normal PC stuff, at least to me. Naturally, you can also go the Linux + MythTV route. If you want to build *just* an HTPC that will do nothing else, I would recommend MythTV, get a case that you like (preferably something that will be quiet), get the Hauppauge PVR-500 (non-MCE), and then basically get a cheap motherboard, processor, and 512MB of RAM. Add in a DVDR, and then stuff in as many large hard drives as you feel the need to use. A couple 320GB drives would be a great place to start....Operandi - Thursday, October 26, 2006 - link
Low bottom lines are nice but if you have to resort to low quality components that are likely to fail (Rosewill) what’s the point?Ok, so a case is essentially just a "box" to put all your hardware in but the power supply is a very important piece of hardware. Rosewill is about 2-3 out of 10; I wouldn't count on them hitting their rated power and I certainly wouldn't count on them being very reliable.
For under $50 (not including shipping) there is wide selection of http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?Subm...">InWin case/PSU combinations. The cases are very solid; heavy steel, and quality plastic, no cheap junk here. The PSUs are also of decent if not great quality, and about 100x better then Rosewill units at any rate.
JarredWalton - Thursday, October 26, 2006 - link
As always, power supply aficionados love to rip on anything that doesn't cost upwards of $50 for the case+PSU, and even then those PSUs are "junk". You have to step back and look at the intended system. Would we recommend the cheap Rosewill PSUs for a midrange config? No, though they'll almost certainly still work if you get the higher 400W+ PSUs. I bought a couple crap cases and PSUs last year just to see how they do with budget systems. They are both still running fine, nearly 12 months later, even with overclocking.I've recommended Inwin in the past, and they're still good. I don't like using the same case month after month, and plenty of people have no issues with Rosewill units. Read the Newegg reviews -- which granted can be skewed -- and you still will see very few writeups scoring any Rosewill case lower than 4/5. Why? Because the people using them are probably building budget systems.
I will state this once again: a budget system with one hard drive, IGP or lower end GPU, typically 1GB or less RAM, one DVDR, and a lower spec CPU will come nowhere near the stated power output of even cheap PSUs. A Pentium D 805 with 7600GT http://www.anandtech.com/guides/showdoc.aspx?i=279...">maxed out at 256W; dropping to IGP would reduce power requirements at maximum by a good 30-50W I would say. Take away the Pentium D and put in a single core Athlon 64 or Sempron, and the maximum power doesn't even break 170W. Average load is going to be around 125W (or less). For the upgraded configurations, they will be faster than the Pentium D 805 but still use less power, so they will also work. I think if you're going to spend $1000 on a system, spending at least $50 on the power supply starts to make sense, but when you're already cutting out higher performance graphics, CPUs, memory, etc. do you really need to get a more expensive, "better" PSU?
Now, I'm not saying cheaps PSUs are great. They usually have poor heatsinks and compensate by using higher RPM, louder fans. They will often fail if you push their power output by overclocking, using multiple HDDs, a higher-end GPU, etc. If you just plan on running a low-end configuration, though, it's really doubtful that you will have problems -- heck, I've even had high-quality power supplies fail or arrive DOA.
Anyway, just FYI, Rosewill is basically a Newegg brand as far as I'm aware. Concerning power supplies, according to information I've received, there are only about three manufacturers in Asia that actually put together power supplies. They will build to the specifications that a company sends, but they are pretty much all coming from the same places. The names on the outside of the power supply are often pretty meaningless.
Operandi - Friday, October 27, 2006 - link
My statements come from experience; I'm not some power snob that thinks every system should have a $200 500 watt PCP&C unit. I haven't been building and working with PCs for a particularly long time but over the course of 5 years I've replaced probably 5-6 (at least) Deer, L&C PSUs (as well as one or two others). Deer, L&C, and other similar manufactures are known for making junk, most of them fail after 1-2 years. Also keep in mind all of them were lower-end budget systems, Duron CPUs, 256MB of RAM, one hard drive, one optical, ect; I don't have to tell you the power requirements were very low.On the other hand I've only had to replace one PSU from a known good manufacture; a mATX Delta that was clogged full of dust. I've also personally put into service 20+ systems powered by cheap ($30-40) FSP (Forton-Source) units; all of them are still going, some of them approaching 4.5-5 years.
Running a couple of "crap" units for 12 months is hardly conclusive. As I've already stated I've replaced a lot of junk, yet I know for fact some of that junk is still running after 2-3 years. Of course if you do the math it comes out to be a failure rate of about 30-40% (within 24 months) for Deer & L&C units; maybe you find that to be expectable but I don't.
A low load dose not mean a cheap, low-quality, crap, junk whatever you want to call it PSU going to be OK. It will almost certainly last longer, but how long is anyone's guess. There is also the safety factor; a well designed (slightly more expensive) unit will protect the hardware it's protected the hardware it's connected to in the event of a failure. (very) Cheap units often designed just to work and lack such features.
Cheap PSUs are designed to work, not to last and that’s what most of them do. They do use smaller heatsinks and use louder fans but they are often designed with cheap and sometimes inadequate components. This means shorter life span, low efficiency/more heat, higher ripple, and poor voltage regulation
Newegg reviews don't hold much of any value when it comes to PSU. The majority of those reviews are dealing short durations and even worst units will last at least several months unless you stress them really hard. I'm willing to bet very few come back after 1, 2 or 3 years later to complain about failure. There is also no tangible user benefit from a poor unit working poorly and a good unit working properly. There is no application to measure DC ripple, and no real accurate way of measuring voltages, but the affects of high ripple and poor voltage regulation are very real in the form of instability and decreased component life. If it turns on it gets 5, if it’s a DOA it gets 0, that’s hardly a complete picture.
Back to Rosewill. I know they are Newegg's house brand, and they don't actually manufacture anything. Rosewill's PSUs come from a variety of manufactures non I would consider to be good; according to jonnyGURU the list includes ATNG, Youngyear and Solytech; you can check the “Rosewill brand experience?” thread in the forums http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid...">here if you want to educate yourself further on the subject.
yyrkoon - Friday, October 27, 2006 - link
I cant speak for Rosewill (although, I would neither reccommend, nor put one in any of my own systems), but I just replaced another no name PSU for a customer today. The thing is, he just bought this other PSU TWO DAYS ago, from another 'PC repair' shop. The PSU had Kate loon fans in it, was a no name brand (couldnt find a single identification, number, or company name on it, that google knew of . . .), and was SUPPOSEDLY a 550W PSU. I Say SUPPOSEDLY, because the PSU which I replaced it with, was a 380W wariant (another in-expencive PSU brand 'TRU-Power'), and it only had 3 amps less on the 12V output. In other words, this '550W' PSU had all its power rated on the 3.3v output(atleast the majority of it).There are a few exceptions when it comes to buying in-expencive parts from any one, for anything, but when you're 'playing' with your buisnesses name sake, its not a very good idea reccomending parts that you are un-sure of. I will guess, that some of, or possibly even a lot of these people putting down 'lesser brand ' PSUs, are kids, who have read bad information on a web site, or forum somewhere, and basicly havent a clue, however, this doesnt mean this is entirely false. Hell, I've read the user reviews on newegg, concerning Antec PSUs, and its not always good, but, again, readers judgement/experience will let you know who is full of it, and who is a complete idiot, when putting PCs together.
Anyhow, where our buisness is concerned here, we will not play around with the random off-branded PSU, and only use those in-expencive parts that WE KNOW will work, but I still reccommend atleast an Antec to each customer, explain to them why, and let them make the final choice.
For my own PCs, nothing less than an Antec, ever. Why do you ask ? 13 years of building PCs, the majority of which I have used in-expencive PSUs in my own systems, and getting tired of the random oddity, like the PC randomly shutting down on its own, BSoDs, or a system that plain ole, wont boot, period :)
Frumious1 - Friday, October 27, 2006 - link
I have had bad luck with Antec the past three years. Every single Antec power supply I have used has failed within two years. Most were cheap 350W power supplies that came with the case, but I even had a couple truepower 380W power supplies fail (Antec Sonata case).Consider this: Rosewill IS Newegg. What is Newegg known for? Providing some of the best prices on computer hardware on the Internet. They are also known for having very good customer support. Others have already mentioned that there really aren't that many Asian companies who actually manufacture power supplies. Why does brand X cost more than brand Y? In some cases it is because they use higher-quality components. In other cases, it's because company X is just trying to make more of a profit. I would be willing to bet that most of the people who bash on Rosewill have never actually owned or tested one of their power supplies. In fact, the next time I need a higher-quality power supply (for example if I'm building an SLI or CrossFire system) I think I'm going to go out and buy one of the more expensive Rosewill offerings and see how it does. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82...">This one looks interesting!
JarredWalton - Friday, October 27, 2006 - link
"Check the 'Rosewill brand experience' thread in the forums here if you want to educate yourself further on the subject."That thread was about as useless - actually more so - than Newegg reviews. A bunch of people called them crap, but not one of those people said "I bought unit X, ran hardware Y, and it Z..." Again, I'm not saying they're great, but what's better:
A $39 Rosewill case and 300W PSU *shipped* that's flimsy but will still run okay and looks fine, and the PSU might fail in a year or two (at which point you can go out and buy a Fotron Source for another $40 *shipped*), or go and get an InWin with 300W PSU that starts at around $65 shipped, has a slightly better PSU that will likely still fail within 3 years if you never clean the dust out of your case, at which point you again buy a new $40 PSU?
Yes, the InWin is built better, but for people that put the system together and then never open it again unless something fails, does it really matter how easy or hard the case is to work with? We're not talking about cases that are likely to go to LAN parties here, and most likely they will sit on the floor or desk for years. If I'm building a cheap computer for someone, they are almost always FAR more concerned with what the case looks like then whether it's flimsy or not. I had three Antec SLK-1650 cases with failed PSUs in the past two years... I built five systems using that case during that time period. The Raidmax case I built 3 years ago for another friend is still going strong, as is another Raidmax from 5 years back.
Oh yeah, the 10+ PSUs I've had fail over the last three or four years have not once managed to take out any other component. None of those were Rosewill, but there's just too many anecdotal "the PSU destroyed my system" stories floating around when I have experienced that sort of problem exactly once during my 20+ years of using computers. (That was back in the days of the Celeron 300A; I've be used an old AT power supply with an extremely cheap motherboard that was supposed to be Baby AT compatible.)
Operandi - Saturday, October 28, 2006 - link
The thread contains information regarding the manufactures of Rosewill PSUs. If you really want know what your dealing with that’s probably the most important information there is.We agree that the InWin is better, but your “slightly better” assumption is based on what?, the slightly higher price? InWin has always had a reputation for making well built cases with decent included PSUs. They used to outsource FSP for all of their PSUs; very good units making them probably the best value out there for case/PSU combos. Recently InWin started manufacturing their own units, they have been by tested by http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/inw...">X-bit and found to comparable to the FSP units. I’ve opened a few up and checked them out and found the design and components to be decent (in my non-expert opinion) so it looks like the value is still there.
Rosewill's PSUs on the other hand come from manufactures known for producing some of the lowest quality cheapest units around. Rosewill might not have bad reputation yet but the units that are built by the same manufactures do.
Isn’t $15-20 more worth the piece of mind of reliable PSU and better built case?
JarredWalton - Monday, October 30, 2006 - link
To some, yes. To someone else, $15-$20 is the difference between IGP and X1300/7300, or Athlon 3000+ and X2 3600+, or 320GB and 160GB HDD, or a better motherboard, or....You get the point. I still strongly believe that most people who grip on power supplies as being low-quality are trying to use them with higher end systems. As soon as someone starts to upgrade from the basic budget builds, yes I would definitely recommend going with a better power supply. However, when you are trying to save as much money as possible, $20 is a pretty significant upgrade on every single component.
Personally, I don't like building budget computers, because $10-$25 above "budget" in every category will get you a MUCH better computer. Yes, it ends up costing $200 more, but if anyone asks me for advice on a budget computer that's what I'm going to recommend (within reason). The "upgraded build" more or less represents what I would truly recommend, with the caveat that I would not recommend every single upgrade for every person. I really feel $750 is the best price point for a "budget" system. Unfortunately, when I get a few budget buyers guides targeting that I got complaints from people that wanted to stay closer to $500. You can't please everyone, so I figure a spread from $500-$1000 is pretty reasonable. I like to think that most people are capable of extrapolating the recommendations a bit and realizing that there are literally hundreds of computer parts worth considering. Which ones are best is going to be a matter of pricing, availability, support, and performance. Without trying to write 20,000 word buyers guides, I'm quite sure that I can cover every single aspect of what you should or shouldn't put into a system.
I still think a lot of people are way too concerned about power supply quality when looking at budget (~$500) computers. There's a reason those types of power supplies get put in cheap OEM systems: they're good enough for budget computers running budget tasks. Ripple current? When was the last time ripple current affected a $500 computer? How can you even tell? It's more like voodoo mumbo-jumbo than concrete evidence of what will happen. LOL!
Frumious1 - Friday, October 27, 2006 - link
You're not a power supply snob? You damn well could have fooled me! I think Jarred is beating around the bush and trying to be nice so I'm going to cut right through the crap and tell you how it is.There are a bunch of elitist enthusiasts out there that think every computer on the planet needs high-end components. Oh sure, you can skimp a bit on the memory, motherboard, CPU, and graphics card, but OMG you had damn well better not use a generic brand power supply! These "experts" have all sorts of experience replacing bad hardware. Amazingly, they never get calls from people wanting to replace good hardware.
Of course, the people that buy really good hardware almost never have to call someone to replace any parts that fail in the first place! I can tell you how many times I've gone to the local computer store with my broken PC and asked for help: NONE! Not a single fucking time! You know why? Because I am capable of diagnosing and replacing my hardware without anyone's help. Just like a lot of you.
The people who call up a friend or an expert to come and fix their computer are not capable of doing it themselves. These people are the same people that usually by OEM systems, or if they do get a "custom" system they almost never buy anything that's truly considered high-quality. I've had Enermax PSUs fail on me, quite a few Antec PSUs, and over the years many "generic" PSUs.
Because I've had more generic PSUs that have failed, I could quickly reach the conclusion that they are lower quality. The only problem is that I have built far more systems with generic PSUs. If I look at all of the power supplies I've used, very few of them last more than five years... or at least, after five years I'm ready get rid of the case, power supply, and everything else. In terms of failure rates, I would say about 20% have problems with the power supply in the first three years of life, but less than 5% have problems within the first year. And those figures really seem to have little to do with who makes the power supply. Okay, maybe if I went out and bought only expensive power supplies, my first-year failure rate would be even lower. Given monetary savings that come with cheap power supplies and cases, though, I'm more than willing to deal with a 5% failure rate. Sort of like Dell and HP I bet.
So let me wrap this up with a concrete story. When Rosewill first came onto the scene as a brand... 18 months ago? Two years ago?... I was curious. I ended up building four systems using Rosewill cases. I probably left a little bit of blood/skin on every single one of those cases, but such is the price of using a budget case. It's the Rosewill TU-153 with 400W PSU, if you're wondering. I have a Pentium D 805 system running in one of those cases, using a Biostar TForce motherboard, and the CPU is even overclocked to 3.4 GHz. I have another one of those with an Athlon X2 3800+, overclocked to 2.5 GHz. Then I built two more computers (one Athlon 64 3000+ and one Sempron 2800+) for a couple people I know.
All four systems are over a year old now, and no one has called to complain about instabilities or crashes, and my two dual core systems haven't had any problems either. My one complaint is that none of the systems are really quiet. The cases are also pretty flimsy, at least compared to some of the nicer cases out there. The one thing I need to make clear is that not one of these computers has anything faster than a GeForce 6600 GT graphics card, because none of them are being used for gaming. Case closed.
guyvia - Thursday, October 26, 2006 - link
I do appreciate Linux being mentioned in the article, but there are a few missed considerations / mistakes in the article.1. 'W'INE 'I's 'N'ot an 'E'mulator. It is a compatability layer.
2. Keyboards can be funny in Linux, and the more fancy buttons and scroll wheels you have, the more likely you are going to have to run extra software to make them work.
3. Using an existing home theatre may not be a great choice for your speakers, considering many onboard sound cards get squirrley with the coax / optical outs when run under ALSA.
bzo - Thursday, October 26, 2006 - link
FYI - Linux users interesteed in the M2NPV: This boards will not boot up recent 2.6 kernels without some hacks. Apparently, there is a bad ACPI table in the BIOS - at least that's what an Nvidia developer has posted. A google on M2NPV and linux will show plenty of references to this problem.yyrkoon - Thursday, October 26, 2006 - link
Actually, since we're nickpicking . . .'Wine is an Open Source implementation of the Windows API on top of X and Unix.'
'Think of Wine as a compatibility layer for running Windows programs. Wine does not require Microsoft Windows, as it is a completely free alternative implementation of the Windows API consisting of 100% non-Microsoft code, however Wine can optionally use native Windows DLLs if they are available. Wine provides both a development toolkit for porting Windows source code to Unix as well as a program loader, allowing many unmodified Windows programs to run on x86-based Unixes, including Linux, FreeBSD, Mac OS X, and Solaris.
More information can be read in the articles Why Wine is so important, and Debunking Wine Myths. If you are wondering how well a particular application works in Wine, please examine the Applications Database. For installation instructions and step-by-step help with running Wine, take a look at the User Guide.
Wine is free software. The licensing terms are the GNU Lesser General Public License.'
http://www.winehq.com/">http://www.winehq.com/
kmmatney - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
"but we definitely wouldn't recommend purchasing and new socket 939 system unless you can get it for less money than the equivalent AM2 setup."I'm very happy with my $99 socket 939 + Athlon 3400+ combo from NewEgg. The processor overclocked to 2.6 Ghz with cheapo RAM. The $60 saved could get a better class of video card. In my case, it was an upgrade, rather than a new system, and I kept my video card and RAM.
JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
Upgrades are of course in a different category, but you also have to take into account the cost. If you *can* get a 939 configuration for less money than an AM2 config - and I'm not talking $5-$10 less, but more like $50+ less - then it's certainly worth a thought, especially for lower budget purchases. Heck, I'm very happy with my Athlon X2 4600+ setup which is also a 939 system. Determing when and where to upgrade is a very different subject from building an entirely new PC.CrazyBernie - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?Cate...">http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductLi...p;Manufa...AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ 2.4GHz Socket AM2 Processor Model ADA3800CWBOX - Retail
For $115.99 !!!
CrazyBernie - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
Bah.... they made a typo... it's a non-X2... nevermind.erple2 - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
On page 2, the second to last paragraph, the second sentence, starts "Dual channel performance might be up to ..." Should that read "Single channel performance might be up to ..."?JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
Yup - corrected.autoboy - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
I just want to mention that the Antec NSK2400 is a good, cheaper alternative to the Silverstone lc-17 and seaconic combo you introduced in your HTPC section. The budget boards you mentioned are all mATX (non upgraded) so they would fit in the NSK2400. It comes with a high quality, quiet 380W power supply and 2 120mm fans. It makes a good budget HTPC. The Silverston lc-17 is a great case but belongs in the Midrange buyers guide.All you need for a budget HTPC is a good quiet case/psu (nsk2400), a single core AMD cpu (Sempron 2600+ if you are really cheap, otherwise a A64 3000+ or 3200+), and a 6150 motherboard. (plus ram, DVD and harddrive of course)
For the upgraded configuration you can add a X2 3800+ so you can transcode, and a 7600GS for a little game action and a few more check marks on the purevideo features list. If you don't like to game on your TV, a 7300GS has the same purevideo features as the 7600GS but costs a little less.
Lets keep the midrange guide seperate from the budget crowd.
JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
Comment added - definitely a good choice, and I'm not sure why that never showed up in my searches at Newegg and other places. I know I was trying to keep the price closer to $100 for an HTPC case, but I kept getting nMEDIA as the only really inexpensive options.HGC - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
I always enjoy these guides and get good ideas from them.One change that's worked for me is to spring for a better case and powersupply even in a budget system, so that they will be usable for the next upgrade in 2-3 years. For example, I bought an Antec case for $60-70 a few years ago and did not want to change it when I recently upgraded. I don't think too many build-it-yourselfers would be happy with a generic case and cheap power supply year after year, even if they held up.
Suggestion: add silent PC to the the rotation.
Thanks guys. I look forward to the next guide.
rdh - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
"Putting together a true budget Intel-based system is difficult right now. Sure, it's possible, but as much as we like Core 2 Duo it simply can't fit into a budget price range. As there are no cheaper single-core Core 2 processors available yet, we wind up back in a familiar place"Wrong. Fry's has been selling boxed C2D 6300 and an ECS MB for $179 since the end of September. I know because I have one. Moved over my disks, AGP graphics, and DDR SDRAM and the system runs quite nicely. Basically, they throw in a MB for free. So if you already have a good AGP adapter (the board does have onboard video) with DDR SDRAM (the ECS MB also takes DDR2), your budget upgrade is $180. You can complete your move to a new MB, PCIe and DDR2 at your leisure.
vailr - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
I agree on the idea of re-using existing DDR memory and AGP video card. The Fry's combo ECS board & E6300 deal is pretty good. Or, an ASRock 775Dual-VSTA board & E6300 CPU might be a little better quality. Unfortunately, there aren't any "good overclocking" boards for the E6300 CPU, that also allow re-using DDR memory and AGP video cards.JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
As I've said in other posts, upgrading is a completely different subject from buying a complete system. If you want to get the Fry's combo, it's not bad, but then you're stuck without a PCIe X16 slot for the future. As I don't expect ATI or NVIDIA to bother with AGP cards anymore, it's a fine board for a base Core 2 Duo platform but it won't overclock much (if at all). You'd almost be better off buying the combo just to get the CPU for $15 less.Also, we don't bother quoting prices from short-term bargains, as they come and go while the guides stick around for a few months. If you can find a much better deal than the prices we quote, go for it, but if it's a 1-day-only affair it won't make it into the buyer's guide. That's what the comments section is for, of course. :)
For those that are interested, here's the http://www.netaffilia.com/ad/electronics/frys/i/20...">Fry's ECS C2D combo information. When it expires, Fry's may or may not renew the offer or come out with something similar. Cheers!
MiroTheHero - Thursday, October 26, 2006 - link
Fry's has the deal for $169. I bought the combo and put it together a week ago /it was 179 then/ using my old parts - AGP card, memory, etc. Works perfect, stable at clock speed , no any problem. It has SATA , RAID, USB 2.0 , Ethernet. The mobo has pretty good layout too.bzo - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
I unfortunately bought this board a few months ago and have regretted it. Overclocking support is almost non-existant because there is no option to change the HTT multiplier. You'll be lucky to overclock 5%. Memory voltage only goes to 1.9V, so most DDR2-800 memory will not work. In addition, with the current BIOS, the board is very picky about memory regardless of the speed.The best MATX AM2 board right now seems to be the Abit NF-M2. Has all the features of the M2NPV-VM plus has all the BIOS tweaks of a full ATX board.
autoboy - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
I second that. I have heard nothing but problems with this line of boards from asus. Poor overclocking and very poor memory support. I don't personally have this board but I have the 939 version and it sits in my closet. It never worked right with any of my memory from any of my 5 computuers, the usb never worked right, and overclocking was non existant due to the memory voltage limit. There are better options.JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
I did add a mention of the overclocking limitations of the board, which are mostly caused by the lack of voltage adjustments. Gary has it for review and hasn't had any problems with memory incompatibility. If you're after great overclocking, uATX and IGP solutions are rarely a good way to go. True, they could be made to overclock better than most do, but enthusiasts looking at overclocking generally don't want uATX systems -- or at least that's the general attitude of the motherboard manufacturers.I've got the 939 ASUS board and it overclocks to the maximum BIOS limit of 240 HTT bus without too much trouble. I'm using it in my HTPC system and have been for a while. There are always going to be compromises made in budget systems. We chose to downplay overclocking support in order to get a DVI port and decent IGP. You could go with something like the DFI board and a 7300TC card for $30 more and get much better overclocking. You could spend $10 more on the Abit board and get better (but not great) overclocking. However, there are a ton of people out there that don't want to overclock. Just because a board has poor overclocking support doesn't mean a lot of people won't like the other features. That's my take anyway.
--Jarred
bzo - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
Jarred,one more thing. If you guys have this board for review, PLEASE bring to ASUS's attention the lack of the HTT multipler in the BIOS and the voltage incompatibility with DDR2-800. Just being able to overclock at all would be great! Queries to ASUS support have gone nowhere.
JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
Gary is working on a review. I initially screwed up on my overclock percentage and said 20%. Gary says he topped out currently at around 225 MHz HTT, which is 12.5%, and I changed the text to ~10%. I agree that the Abit board looks to be a better overclocker (performance at stock levels is going to be about the same), but at that point you're looking at a $100 "budget" motherboard and the $70 options begin to gain my interest. I think the Biostar TForce 6100 might overclock a bit better than the ASUS, so I would be more inclined to go down to that and lose the DVI port rather than spend any more on the motherboard.bzo - Thursday, October 26, 2006 - link
great, look forward to seeing the review. That's the best overclock I've heard about for this board. Do you guys have access to an unreleased BIOS or something? Or maybe Gary has some tweaks or tips for getting there?Here's a recent review where the reviewer gets to 213Mhz, which is more typical in my experience.
http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/966/5/page_5_bios...">Tweaktown review
JarredWalton - Thursday, October 26, 2006 - link
Gary tends to work magic with overclocking, so hopefully he can shed some light on the matter. I'm pretty sure he's using a public BIOS, though... maybe just better RAM and other components are playing a role?bzo - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
Hi Jarred, granted the focus of this budget build is not overclocking, but it doesn't sound like you have hands on use with the AM2 M2NPV. You mention a potential 20% overclock, where it's actually closer to 5%. As far as I know, the 939 version does let you change the HTT mulitiplier which is why you can get to 240fsb. The AM2 BIOS is missing this adjustment. As we all know, the HTT bus not take to running over spec well, which is the biggest limitation of this board, not the voltage adjustments. Most people can not get this board past 210fsb.If you don't believe the problems with this board, just check out the reviews at Newegg or the user forums at asus.com.
Also, while the Abit is not as good an overclocker as say my Lanparty NF4-Ultra, it sure looks like a pretty good performer to me. People successfully running > 300fsb, CPU voltage to 2.0v, ram voltage to 2.5v, and many of the obscure adjustments I see on my DFI. Well worth an extra $10. Heck, the silent heatpipe chipset cooler on the abit is worth the extra $ alone.
BladeVenom - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
There really is no price difference between the upgraded budget system and the midrange system. I think it would be more useful to keep a clear price divide between the different categories. Otherwise you might as well just call them the same thing and save yourself half an article.KAZANI - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
Agreed. The upgraded recommendation is totally redundant.JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
The idea is to purchase the upgrades you want/need. I don't think you need every more expensive option, so maybe just the CPU, mobo, and GPU. We do feel moving towards midrange will get you a better overall config, and part of the problem is that there really isn't much of a difference between an upgraded budget setup and a midrange computer. If we left off the upgrades altogether, though, I don't think people would like that.stmok - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
...On Page 6, under the Budget Case and Accessories package, you have Linux and OpenOffice in the package.Shouldn't you include MS Office under the Windows XP Budget Case and Accessories package?
Its not exactly a "fair comparison" to have one solution include an office suite, but the other without.
The rest of the article seems fine. Interestingly, I'm also considering the ASUS M2NPV-VM for a budget setup. :) (But with a cheap as Sempron for now).
I noticed in the Upgraded Budget AMD Athlon X2 AM2 System on page 4, you suggested a X2 3800+...I'm assuming that's the regular 89W ones, right? How much are the 65W versions? (Reason I'm asking because down here in Australia, the price difference is about AUD$5 to AUD$7).
yyrkoon - Thursday, October 26, 2006 - link
OpenOffice also has a Windows port . . .JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
A quick look at Newegg shows the 65W models are about $5-$15 more ($10 on the 3800+). Definitely worth a look, although the X2 EE 3800+ is out of stock at a lot of places right now. As for OpenOffice, it was more an implication that you can get decent free software if you want. You can get OOo for XP and many other platforms as well. I'd rate it as very close to the same quality as MS Works, but the full MS Word is definitely better than OOo's word processor.Sunrise089 - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
I appreciate AT's new commitment to pumping out buyer's guides, which I continue to state are one of the most useful parts of the site for myself. Although my own PC won't be in the budget category, it's always great to have a system configuration to look at when a friend or family member asks for computer advice. I hope you guys keep up the present quick rate of releasing these.Since I think Midrange is up next again, if Jarred reads this I hope he considers adding a discrete fan/heatsink option to the configurations for the next guide. With all the (welcome) info on OC'ing, it seems a shame to run the stock HSF.
JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
The guides are a complete package, and we mentioned aftermarket HSFs in the High-End guide. :D But yes, I can put a great emphasis on that with the next midrange guide (which will move to the new "separated" format).bgold2005 - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
been awhile since i built my last system. Not sure why mpc7488 emphasizes 'you even get Windows' when that's included in both (his) comparisons. Couple points/questions:1. I have read tomorrow (10/26) MS supposed to offer Express Coupon program to include upgrades to Vista, and that MCE with a 'SKU' will allow a free upgrade. So smart pricing and consideration might include MCE pricing, and whether an OEM MCE from Dell would include an eligible SKU or not. (yes budget systems but budget also means future-aware).
2. I have long been intrigued by dell's online option to provide an OS disc for $ 10.
Does anyone (eg the dell-experienced mpc7488 ) KNOW what's on this disc? eg, the retail OS
(I doubt), an OEM OS (only) or more like a Compaq-style 'recovery disc' where you may have to reinstall ALL the original bloated sw junk, cant install cmdcons (if no access to /i386), cant slipstream etc.
I'm not super up to date, just wanna know.
Thanx!
mpc7488 - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
I emphasized Windows for the non-monitor box since at the $400 price point the O/S is about 1/4 of the price. Knocking off the cost of the O/S, you're getting a lot of hardware for the money. (Also, many people building budget systems might not be inclined to buy a copy of Windows *cough* pirate *cough*, but this route allows their conscience to be clear.)All of the recent Dell PCs have the recovery option already loaded on the hard drive. The $10 you pony up extra is for the O/S disk, which is OEM I believe (not positive about that).
JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
I'm not sure on the $10 XP CD either. I think it's supposed to be a full OEM copy of XP, but it might be a Dell branded version, meaning it could fail to work on non-Dell PCs if you want to move to a new computer in the future. The Dell recovery option is very conventient I think, with the only issue being the restoration of all the crap software. I think it took about an hour for me to remove all the stuff I didn't want on the XPS 410 system I got for review. (No XP CD was included on that one.)Sunrise089 - Thursday, October 26, 2006 - link
I can tell you you do get a full version (OEM) on XP at least in my case. I bought a second hand dell from a business that had been bought out by another company (new company used Macs). The Dell came with a OS CD. I upgraded the PC's memory and added a DVD-RW, and eventually swapped motherboards - reinstalled just fine, no Dell splash screen or anything. Eventually I parked that PC and built my present Opteron machine - same CD works fine.JarredWalton - Thursday, October 26, 2006 - link
Business Dell PCs might come with different accessories than home Dell PCs. I know I worked at a company that used Dell Optiplex GX150 and later GX620 systems, and every one came with an OS CD. Sort of funny, as my understanding is the corporation had a site license anyway.yyrkoon - Thursday, October 26, 2006 - link
I'm pretty sure this is the case Jarred, a friend of mine let me check out his XP CD that came with his Dell system, on a non Dell system when XP first came out, and the error I got was 'this is not a Dell Computer . . '. However, this was a few years ago, so things could have changed, but somehow, I doubt it.mpc7488 - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
As the subject, good article, these system guides are always fun to read and debate.You do touch on the OEM systems up front, but I didn't feel they got quite enough attention. At this price point, for budget systems that is, they are really a powerful option. I rounded up some pricing to compare:
The budget system as quoted in this article is:
Budget AMD: Athlon 64 3000+, 1 GB DDR2-667, 160 GB HDD, GeForce 6150, DVD-R/W, 19” Sceptre, keyboard, mouse, X-230 speakers, Win XP Home
Tally: $749 ($368 + $381)
Now then, let's compare to what Dell has on sale.
Dell AMD E521: Athlon 64 X2 3800+, 1 GB DDR2-533, 160 GB HDD, GeForce 6150, DVD, 19” Dell 1907FP Ultrasharp, keyboard, mouse, Win XP Home, 1 year on-site warranty.
Tally: $625 ($579, free shipping, ~$46 tax (NY))
With a $30 DVD-R/W upgrade these systems are essentially the same, with the Dell having a much faster dual-core processor, a very quiet case, and a warranty, with $100 cash in pocket. If you don’t need a monitor, the price drops to $430.92, after shipping and tax. With Windows! The user in this range often wants decent performance and usability but the PC isn't enough of a priority to spend a lot of cash, or they are poor college students forgoing Ramen noodles to upgrade their video cards, but I digress. Point being, the warranty coverage and tech support are usually the most valuable to budget purchasers, which also factors in subjectively.
I am not a n00b, you say! I want pure performance at Hyundai prices! Ok, let's look stricly at performance with OEMs, i.e., upgrading. A lot of the older Dells didn’t have expansion slots, which sucked, but a lot of the newer chassis do, and this one has one PCIe x16 slot which opens up upgrading as an option. As the article points out, graphics horsepower means more than CPU at the moment. So with a couple of additions to our Dell box:
DVD-R/W: $29
XFX GeForce 7900 GT: $199.99 (after $50 MIR from Newegg)
Toss in $10 for shipping, and that is a really nice gaming rig with a 3800+ X2, 1 GB of RAM, and a 7900GT for <$865 with a legal copy of Windows and a warranty. Yes, you will feel dirty every time you press the power button above the 'Dell' logo, but it'll fade quickly once you're gaming at high res with AA on your 1907FP.
All this said - I build my own systems, always. I like overclocking and mucking about in the BIOS, choosing my own heatsink/fan combo, and so forth too much to ever make an OEM system my primary box. But they can be really nice to suggest to friends, neighbors, acquaintences, and even enthusiasts without enough time or energy to build their own.
Thanks for stimulating my brain Jarred! A good PC hardware discussion always wakes me up in the morning.
misanthropy - Thursday, October 26, 2006 - link
The power suppy for that dell system can't handle a 7900GT, n00b.mpc7488 - Friday, October 27, 2006 - link
Actually it can, and does. I personally know someone running that config. no problem, Google it and you'll find others. I was wondering if that would come up, good point to raise regardless of malice.yehuda - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
The Dell E521 would be perfect if it had DVI onboard. The integrated GeForce 6150 graphics processor is readily capable of that, only the physical connector is missing.http://www.nvidia.com/page/gpu_mobo_tech_specs.htm...">http://www.nvidia.com/page/gpu_mobo_tech_specs.htm...
JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
You are correct that the OEM systems are a pretty good deal. However, please remember to include speakers and a minor upgrade to the mouse. Depending on whether or not you want to argue about taxes and shipping, the net result is that the price ends up very close to what you would pay for the same configuration in DIY clothing. Here's what I got:Base AMD Athlon™ 64 X2 Dual-Core 3800+
Operating System Genuine Windows® XP Media Center Edition 2005
Memory 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz- 2DIMMs
Keyboard Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse
Monitor 19 inch Ultrasharp™ 1907FP Digital Flat Panel
Video Card 256MB NVIDIA Geforce 7300LE TurboCache
Hard Drive 160GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™
Floppy Drive and Media Reader No Floppy Drive Included
Mouse Mouse included in Wireless, Laser or Bluetooth Package
Network Interface Integrated 10/100 Ethernet
Modem No Modem Option
Adobe Software Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 7.0
CD ROM/DVD ROM 16x DVD+/-RW Drive
Sound Cards Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Speakers Dell A525 30 Watt 2.1 Stereo Speakers with Subwoofer
Office Productivity Software (Pre-Installed) No productivity suite- Includes Microsoft Works 8. DOES NOT INCLUDE MS WORD
Security Software No Security Subscription
Warranty and Service 1Yr Ltd Warranty and At-Home Service
Internet Access Service 6 Months of EarthLink Internet Access Included
Miscellaneous Award Winning Service and Support
Future Operating Systems Windows Vista™ Capable
Dell Digital Entertainment No preinstalled software
TOTAL:$729.00
Tax: $61
Final Bill: $790.
Compare that to the budget config, only add in the CPU upgrade and use the XP accessory package. Also factor in the 7300 LE TC Dell includes. You end up saving about $75 all told, which is where I arrived at my conclusion: "You still get a lower price on the software [Works is also included if you care about that].... We feel that our buyer's guides offer better expandability, performance, and features at roughly the same price, with the only potential drawback being that you have to know how to put together the system yourself."
My point in including the OEM paragraph was to make sure people were aware of the option. I would say the overall component selection in the budget config is slightly better than what Dell gives, but if you just plan on using the computer without any performance tuning then the Dell (and probably HP and others) would come out on top. I will make this more clear, though, as I really do mean people should consider OEM systems at the bottom of the price range.
gman003 - Thursday, October 26, 2006 - link
Jarred,I would have to say that the Dell option is a good option, but in many peoples case, not the best option. I just recommended the Dell OEM system to a friend because I was running short on time. After 3-4 weeks of "build" time, the Dell finally arrived. I believe he placed his order in the month of Septemeber, so it was late September. He just received his computer this week, on the 23rd. I felt bad for the poor guy. He had ordered a 19" LCD from newegg the same day as the Dell system, but the LCD showed up on his doorstep on October 2nd.
The computer arrived and is what you would expect for a AMD X2 3800+ system. I just don't know if it was really worth waiting around for, ya know? So you have that going against the Dell system. Now, let's take into account the problems of dealing with Dell when a warranty or heaven-forbid, a technical problem happens.
I have called Dell about 10 times in the last 2 months for warranty, parts, issues, etc. and every call has been to an Indian person with poor English, which results in poor customer service. My shortest call to one person, took 30 minutes because of how many times you have to repeat yourself to them so that they can understand you. It's just awful. My longest call has been somewhere around 2-3 hours. This is not an exaggeration. I have phone records to prove it. Compare this to buying a DIY rig from a site like newegg or zipzoomfly where the delivery time is 3 days and warranty issues are handled by an actual American person residing here in the good ol' US of A. I just can't say that the Dell is worth the small amount of cost savings for the nightmares that await some people that have to deal with Dell after the sale.
As a PC builder, I would rather help people build their own computer than have them deal with Dell. I would hope the rest of the technical community would do the same.
JarredWalton - Thursday, October 26, 2006 - link
I merely used Dell as one example, being that they are currently the largest OEM. Feel free to insert HP, Gateway, or some other OEM and you will still usually get similar prices (if not worse).gman003 - Friday, October 27, 2006 - link
Not entirely true. There is an article on a shall we say "competing website", that stated that HP had actually surpassed Dell during this quarter or this year for total desktops/laptops etc. They considered it a tie, but HP had a small lead, so there :-pActually, my main point was that, the Dell OEM system like any other OEM system is good, but is probably not worth the savings when you take into account having to deal with the manufacturer when problems happen. It may not justify saving $50-$100 for an OEM system like that since you have to deal with shall we say "Indians", that have a horrible time trying to understand what you are saying.
Waiting 3-4 weeks for your computer to show up is not worth the cost savings. Having horrible customer support is not worth the cost savings. Just buy a custom built rig everytime and deal with a homegrown US of A company like newegg or zipzoomfly. They will handle your RMA promptly and efficiently in my past experiences compared to Dell.
Let's try to do away with Dell. Just remember, everytime you call Dell, its like Hell.
Frumious1 - Friday, October 27, 2006 - link
That has to be one of the most ignorant posts I've read in a long time. Racism and nationalism combined. What more could we ask for!? "Don't buy Dell because you'll get support from Indians!" Okay, let's think about a few things. Most of the people who call Dell technical support our computer novices, and often they are calling with stupid questions. They certainly aren't capable of building their own system and installing windows XP and all of the other software! What exactly is going to be the response of Newegg or Zipzoomfly if you should call up and informed them that you're having problems with drivers, Windows, etc.?Generally speaking, the support from most online retailers is going to be if you need a hardware replacement. How often do you need to replace hardware in an OEM system because it fails on arrival or soon after? I have supported hundreds of Dell systems at an IT job, and while we definitely had component failures over the years, it was typically less than 10% of the systems that had problems during a three-year period.
If you purchase separate components and you get a failed piece of hardware, unless you spend extra in order to get an additional warranty, you're basically stuck RMAing the device. I have done that several times with new egg, and it is always at least a week delay if not two. Four weeks to get a complete system built and assembled, right around the time that Intel launched Core 2 Duo and everyone finally had a reason to buy Dell systems again? That's not that big of a problem in my book, especially considering all of the problems that were going on with P965.
Now let's shift over to Dell (or HP). On the offhand you get a bad component with your computer and you know how to troubleshoot it enough to tell that your hard drive, motherboard, whatever is the problem, what sort of support you get? Maybe you have to deal with the call center from India, but once you tell them "I turn my computer on and it won't work. It tells me boot device not found" you will usually be directed towards your local support location. Take the computer in, and perhaps in as little as one hour you will have your system fixed and running, certainly no more than a day or two. That sort of support comes standard for one year, and you can upgrade to two years for a moderate fee.
Dell is no angel, but neither are they that bad. They are, like most companies, looking to make money. You still get what you pay for, which means if you go with the cheap systems you get cheaper quality and lower performance. My biggest complaint with Dell is their motherboards, as that's the one area where low quality often leads to instability over time. That opinion once again stems from my support of hundreds of Dell computers.
gman003 - Friday, October 27, 2006 - link
No, Dell really is that bad. Do you know how many times you have to repeat yourself to them. They have horrible customer service. That alone is reason enough to not buy from them. I have way too many tell me how bad their experiences with Dell are all the time.The response of newegg or zipzoomfly for a bad motherboard that you have to RMA is this, "Ok sir, go ahead and purchase a new one. Send us your bad motherboard and we will reimburse you once we have received the board." 3 days later you have a new board. If the same situation happened at Dell, you would be on the phone for over an hour telling them your case number, service tag, location, etc. so they can document it. Then you would wait 2-4 weeks for your part to arrive. Thanks, but no thanks.
Can you really deny the fact that Dell's customer service center is in India and they have the worst accents on the planet?
It took 4 weeks to build an AMD X2 3800 system if you had actually read the post correctly. You really think 4 weeks is an average time it should take to build a system that has been out for a year now? C'mon, gimme a break.
mpc7488 - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
Thanks for the reply. I'd like to caveat my response by saying I'm *not* trying to argue or be a jerk - I just enjoy a good hardware discussion :) I also use your guides for comparison to what I'd do for myself (midrange usually) or for my friends, coworkers, etc. (budget). I totally agree, in this price range, you're still always getting better expandability with these. However, features and performance is much greyer to my mind, and with the right deals I think an OEM with a little tinkering can be a powerful option for the non-power user, even at prices outside of the bottom range.Speakers: point made, I meant to include them and forgot. The X-230s are $31.25 at Newegg (free shipping).
OEM configurations: I've found the trick with Dell is generally not to upgrade their base configurations to get the best deals. For instance, buying the DVD-R/W and speakers from Newegg saves you $38. That can get put towards a real video card, instead of the 7300LE. Upgrades will quickly inflate the price and skew the deal.
Ok, direct comparisons:
Budget AMD: Athlon 64 3000+, 1 GB DDR2-667, 160 GB HDD, GeForce 6150, DVD-R/W, 19” Sceptre, keyboard, mouse, X-230 speakers, Win XP Home, $749
Dell E521: Athlon 64 X2 3800+, 1 GB DDR2-533, 160 GB HDD, GeForce 6150, DVD-R/W, 19” Dell 1907FP Ultrasharp, keyboard, mouse, X-230 speakers, Win XP Home, 1 year on-site warranty, $686.25 (with burner and X-230 speakers from Newegg)
"better expandability, performance, and features at roughly the same price"
Expandability: Without a doubt. This is where OEMs can't compare.
Features: $65 savings for a faster dual-core processor, better monitor, and warranty coverage. You lose DVI output (thanks yehuda) and have slightly slower memory. It's close enough though, as prices will fluctuate, I'll concede this one.
Performance: I'd have to say the crown would go to the 3800+! More impressively for media encoding and Windows tasks than for gaming, with the weak 6150.
Upgraded Budget AMD: Athlon 64 X2 3800+, 2 GB DDR2-533, 250 GB HDD, GeForce 7600GT 256 MB, DVD-R/W (with DVD-RAM), 19” Sceptre, keyboard, mouse, X-230 speakers, Win XP Home, $1090
Upgraded Dell E521: Athlon 64 X2 3800+, 1 GB DDR2-533, 160 GB HDD, GeForce 7900GT 256MB, DVD-R/W (with DVD-RAM), 19” Dell 1907FP Ultrasharp, keyboard, mouse, X-230 speakers, Win XP Home, 1 year on-site warranty, $875 (with burner, PCIe video card and X-230 speakers from Newegg)
Expandability: Without a doubt. This is where OEMs can't compare.
Features: $215 savings for a much faster video card, better monitor, and warranty coverage. You lose 1 GB of memory and HDD space.
Performance: The 7900GT would absolutely smoke the other box in just about any game, even with less RAM. Media encoding and Windows tasks would benefit from the greater RAM of the other config.
Obviously I am bored at work today. To each their own of course - I think OEM builds with alterations can be a powerful adversary, in price, performance and features, to self-builds in the budget price range, especially if overclocking is not a consideration, and shouldn't be relegated to the bottom of the heap. Just my $0.04.
It'd be interesting to see how a custom build would hold up against a Dell box with upgrades, in a cheapo-gaming-and-media-machine shootout.
batter - Friday, November 10, 2006 - link
Nice discussion; I always compare to dell/hp and always decide to build my own: I know what is in it, I build with future upgrades in mind, I do not use proprietory hardware. Also keep in mind that a bunch of people already have a keyboard, mouse, windows license, speakers etc and might even be able to re-use the case and or PS. With that in mind I usually come out ahead.Calin - Thursday, October 26, 2006 - link
For the difference between the Dell and the homebuilt system (75$) you could easily buy a video card with not one but two DVI outputs. So, in features, Dell (with upgrades) would be a better deal(but I would build my own anyway :D )
JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
You can also do:Upgraded Budget AMD Alternative: Athlon 64 X2 3800+, 1 GB DDR2-533, 250 GB HDD, GeForce 7900GT 256 MB, DVD-R/W (with DVD-RAM), 19” Sceptre, keyboard, mouse, X-230 speakers, Win XP Home, $1109 shipped.
Upgraded Dell (purchasing everything from Dell): Athlon 64 X2 3800+, 1 GB DDR2-533, 250 GB HDD, GeForce 7300TC LE, DVD-R/W, 19” 1907FP, keyboard, mouse, 2.1 speakers, Win XP MCE2005, $759 (plus taxes). Add $240 for 7900GT = $999. You still get MS Works for "free" though.
Once you start going online and purchasing upgrades, however, I think you have moved away from your typical Dell PC buyer. Most people either want to buy the whole system with everything they want, or else they will go to a local store to buy a system or just put the whole thing together themselves. If you actually want Dell to put together a better gaming solution -- or anything with even moderately upgraded graphics -- you basically have to move up to their XPS line. That gives you a better CPU and maybe a few other extra perks, but the price suddenly jumps up to $1289.
As you say, you can usually do better getting the base OEM configuration and making upgrades on your own, but I'm not sure how many people really go that route.
yyrkoon - Thursday, October 26, 2006 - link
I recently upgraded for under the cost of your listed upgrade, however I migrated HDDs, mouse, keyboard, monitor, and PSU. In my opinion, this would be a 'true' upgrade for a person such as myself. I could have even saved another $160 usd, if I didnt care about the onboard graphics where gaming is concerned, and unfortunately, for my wallet, I do ;)At last tally, I spent between $750-$800 usd, including the low-end Lian Li case (very nice BTW), eVGA 7600GT, AM2 3800+, Corsair DDR2-6400 XMS (advertised at 5-5-5-18 timings, but my motherboard typicaly detects it as 4-4-4-12, as long as I'm running it stock), and an Asrock AM2NF4G-SATA2 motherboard. I'd like to add that this motherboard is JUNK, it overclocks fine, but the system gets BSoDs regularly, whether I OC it or not. Wont be long before I make a platform upgrade, to a Conroe CPU/ ABIT motherboard . . .
ThelvynD - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
It's a fairly decent monitor and you can pick them up from Newegg right now for 179.99. My biggest complaint about it is the rather cheap stand it's on.imaheadcase - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
That memory is now the most expensive part of a normal computer.Memory manufactors are making a fortune I bet on all types of memory. Not to mention off all these suckers who buy "gaming" memory. "Oh please mom i have to be the best geek on the net to have camo on my memory heatsink spreader!".
Wesley Fink - Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - link
Memory manufacturers make the finished dimms, and almost all of them buy memory chips on the open market from Samsung, Micron, Elpida, and other huge semi-c0nductor manufacturers, This means companies like Corsair, OCZ, Kingston, Mushkin, etc. are as much at the mercy of chip prices as buyers are. I bring this up because the chip makers themselves are where chip prices haves been rising, and that is where the questions should be directed.yyrkoon - Thursday, October 26, 2006 - link
Forgot to mention, look at the latest part (sold by newegg) thats obviously jacked up in price, the 'Killer' network adapter, marketed as the 'the ultimate gaming NIC'. Somehow, I seriously doubt the card is worth $270 usd, I dont care if it shoots sparks out its behind . . .yyrkoon - Thursday, October 26, 2006 - link
Yeah well, Crucial is part of Micron, and they charge more for thier memeory than alot of 'manufactuers', IF you buy direct from them. Then again, if you buy direct from Crucial, IF your memory ever goes bad, they will send you a replacement before they even recieve the bad part (atleast this is what thier reps claim over the phone).I myself paid $230 usd for my Corsair DDR2-6400 XMS memory about 3-4 months ago, 5-5-5-15 timings (supposedly, my system regularly detects it as 4-4-4-12 timings). At the time, I thought it was outrageous, and they also gave me a $50 rebate, which I've recieved by now. Turns out comparred to now, I actually recieved a good price ;)
This all seems to be a trend started by the graphics companies over a year ago, offer a product that you CLAIM is a gaming part, and jack up the price. Motherboard manufactuers, and memory manufactuers just now seem to be catching on, this wont go away, until the kids stop spending mommies, and daddies money on such parts. Hopefully, this trend will go away eventually, and once these companies realize they could actually make more money from people like us who build systems for more than just themselves. *shrug* I dislike buying non branded memory, and preffer a company with a reputation for reliability, but at the same time I refuse to buy parts that have obviously been jacked up, because the manufactuer has turned greedy.